Deflective Defective Disciples Part 1: full transcript and answers

▶ 0:00 But this morning we’re going to talk about some deflective, defective disciples. Not everybody in the Bible turned out to be heroes. Deflective, defective disciples. They deflected because they had a defect. A disciple is one that’s disciplined, a pupil of Christ, a follower of Christ. And in John 6 we find him talking to what he called disciples, and he said, “There are some of you that believe not.” These are disciples that believe not. “For Jesus knew from the beginning who believe not and who should betray him.” Wow, powerful statement. “No man,” Jesus said, “can come unto me except it were given unto him by my Father.”

▶ 1:03 Jesus said, listen, you can’t decide to serve God on your own. Me and my Father have to be involved in your conversion, in your salvation. It’s not joining a church, or being a Jew, or being a Protestant, or being a Catholic. Jesus said my Father has to be involved. The Spirit of God has to be involved. That’s why the Bible says you must be born again of the Spirit and of the word. Well, the disciples didn’t like this statement. Okay, now these are disciples. They’re disciples that didn’t believe. See, they were disciplined to follow Christ to a certain degree, but “from that time many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.” They left him. And they were called disciples, but when it come down to God being involved, and accountability and responsibility, they left Jesus. And we’re going to show you what was really in their heart here.

▶ 2:19 Here Jesus is. Then Jesus said to the twelve apostles, “Will you also go away?” Right now they’re the twelve disciples, apostles. Later they said, “You going to leave also?” And that’s what God is saying to the churches in America: Are you people going to leave me? Are you going to stop walking with me? You’re going to join your little clique and take your little clique and go out and think you got something? Are you going to stop walking with me? And they said, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

▶ 3:02 Now, as a young Christian this scripture just jumped right out at me, really did. There’s nowhere to go. Jesus has the words of eternal life. And remember, a couple weeks ago we learned that eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ, not just live forever. And then the disciples, his twelve disciples, replied and said, “We believe and we know that you are that Christ, the Son of the living God.” You see, they had experienced that dimension of God being involved in their salvation. It wasn’t a little hand-me-down Christianity: my parents were Christians, so I’m a Christian. Hallelujah.

▶ 3:57 Now, so that you understand why these disciples left, we’re going to go back to the early part of the scripture. And I’m going to make this statement: these fractured followers were after what they could get from following Jesus, not what they could give to Jesus. And a lot of Christians are only out for what they can get from God and not what they can give from God. And what God wants you to give him is a Bible morality lifestyle: living right, stop sinning. Hallelujah, that’s what he wants out of you. Oh, praise is wonderful and prayer is wonderful, but what he wants out of you is you to live right. That’s what he wants you to give him back. Doesn’t matter if you’re a Catholic or a Jew or a Protestant or whatever. And we only want what we can get.

▶ 5:06 And so, you know, the prosperity people come in. Like today, in John 6:2, this is the multitude, this is the disciples that were following him. They followed him in John 6:2 because they saw his signs which he performed on those who were diseased. They wanted to show— you know, Oral Roberts back in the old days: “Expect a miracle every day.” The emphasis was on a miracle. You couldn’t go through a day without a miracle. God help you if you were sick and God never healed you, because during the ‘50s, during the ‘60s, in the Spirit-filled world there was such an emphasis on divine healing that, man, if you’d got sick you were just a faithless, weak, worthless person. See, are we— we want what we can get out of God.

▶ 6:12 And Jesus said it plainly. Okay, then later, in verse 26, he says, “You don’t seek me now because you see the signs and wonders and miracles. Now you seek me, you follow me, because I fed you with the loaves and the fishes and you were filled.” You want free food. Now you don’t want a show anymore, you want free food: what we can get out of God. And this is where your prosperity preaching today comes in: today’s faith and grace camps, prosperity, psychotherapy, Purpose— Purpose Driven, possibility thinking, positive thinking, and prophecy— one-on-one independent individual prophecy. We got all the— all these P’s. And they’re fractured followers. They are deflecting from Christ because they have a de— defect in them. They’re wanting something instead of giving him something. Can I hear an amen? And that’s where we’re at in America, and America needs to hear this message, and you need to get it out to them.

▶ 7:51 Now, Jesus wants us to give to him Bible morality, not grace and faith, or prosperity, positive, purpose, possibility, psychotherapy, reparative therapy. There’s no reparative therapy in the Bible. In the Bible it’s self-control: just stop what you’re doing. Hallelujah. Now, I’m going to give you some examples of some deflective, defective ministers. All right, these are their statements.

▶ 8:37 [Recorded clip begins.] And what about Mitt Romney? And I got to ask you the question, because it is a question, whether it should be or not, in this campaign: Is a Mormon a true Christian? Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his Savior, and that’s what I believe. So, you know, I’m not the one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are. And, you know, Mr. Romney seemed like a man of character and integrity to me, and I don’t think he would— anything would stop me from voting for him, if that’s what I felt like. So, for instance, when people start talking about Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, and the golden tablets in upstate New York, and God assumes the shape of a man, do you not get hung up in those theological issues? I probably don’t get hung up in them, because I haven’t really studied them or thought about them. And, you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don’t know. I certainly can’t say that I agree with everything that I’ve heard about it, but from what I’ve heard from Mitt, when he says that Christ is his Savior, to me that’s a common bond. [Recorded clip ends.]

▶ 9:44 So I personally talked with headquarters of the Mormon church this week. I didn’t act like I was somebody else; I just personally called them, and I said, I want some questions answered, and they answered them. I said, is Jesus Christ God? And they said no. I said, is Jesus Christ eternal, without a beginning and without an end? And they said no, Jesus Christ is only the Son of God, and he didn’t exist until Mary. Now, how many you know the Bible teaches he existed before Mary? [Clip replayed:] He believes in Christ as his Savior, and that’s what I believe. So, you know, I’m not the one to judge the little details of it, so I believe they are. I’m not the one to judge them. I believe— say that statement: I believe, I believe. Who cares what he believes? See, when he says that Christ is his Savior, to me— is— does Christ care what you believe, or does he care that you believe what he believes? Yeah.

▶ 11:07 Now, they also told me that there were three places to go when you die. I said, really? Is a certain type of people going to hell? And they said no. And 1 Corinthians 15: there’s the sun, moon and stars, the terrestrial, the celestial, and the— they got a new word, terrestrial, telestial. They created a new word. And they said the sun, moon and the stars: the first kingdom after you die is where people that believe God and follow God and do good go. The second one is where people that can change later, and then the third one is for people that just resent God, and, you know, and all this.

▶ 12:00 I said, man, that sounds like Catholicism. I said, you know, I happen to know 1 Corinthians 15. I happen to know it by heart, and there is nothing in 1 Corinthians 15 that says that the moon and sun and the stars are kingdoms. They said, oh no, no, he says our modern prophets told us that. I go, really? I go, who are your modern prophets telling you this? He said, Joseph Smith. I go, okay, all right. Now, folks, that’s from the horse’s mouth. That’s from Utah.

▶ 12:40 Okay, now, is that fractured philosophy? Yes. Biblical? Yeah, it is. You see, they are— they are taking the Bible and making it be what they want it to be. And so, no, Mormons aren’t going to heaven. Joel Osteen’s out of his mind. He is a Christian preacher, and he doesn’t know that, and he hadn’t studied it, and yet he’s got— he’s the biggest church in America. It’s sad. Are you with me? It’s very sad.

▶ 13:14 Now, let’s go on. [Recorded clip begins.] Who said your record don’t count? You either believe in Christ or you don’t. If you believe in Christ you are going to heaven; if you don’t, no matter what you’ve done in your life, you ain’t. Yeah, it— I don’t know. There’s probably a balance between— I believe you have to know Christ, but I think that if you know Christ, if you’re a believer in God, you’re going to have some good works. I think it’s a cop-out to say, well, I’m a Christian but I don’t ever do anything to help. What if you’re Jewish or Muslim and you don’t accept Christ at all? No, I— I just— I’m very careful about saying who would and wouldn’t go to heaven. I don’t know. I think only God— you believe you have to believe in— I believe they’re wrong. Well, I don’t know if I believe they’re wrong. I don’t know if I believe they’re wrong. I spent a lot of time in India with my father, and, you know, I don’t know all about the religion, but I know they love God, and I don’t know, I’d have to— you know, I’ve seen their sincerity, so I don’t know. I don’t know. [Editor’s note: about 20 seconds of this stretch have no captions.]

▶ 14:36 Hey, glad to have you. Hello, Oprah! Awesome to have you. We love you, we pray for you. Joel Osteen’s church. Oprah brought a friend with her today. He’s an entrepreneur, an actor, just— Tyler Perry is with us as well. Mr. Tyler Perry. All right, what’s your question for our spiritual panel? I’m a thirty-three-year-old guy. I grew up in a rural part of Alabama, and I happen to be gay, and the troubling part of our culture, which is largely anti-gay— being gay is a gift from God. Being gay is a gift from God. Now, where’s that in the Bible? But our culture doesn’t understand that, and consequently the culture sends messages that you ought to isolate it, that you ought to isolate, that you ought to isolate.

▶ 15:38 Well, you’re the first minister I ever heard say being gay is a gift from God. I can say now here human beings make is believing that there is only one way to live, and that we don’t accept that there are diverse ways of being in the world, that there are millions of ways to be a human being, and many ways— no, but many paths to what you God, and her path might be something else, and when she gets there she might call it the light, but her loving and her kindness and her generosity brings her— if it brings her to the same point that it brings you, it doesn’t matter whether she called it God along the way or not. And I guess the danger that could be on that, I mean, it sounds great on the onset, but if you really look at both sides, there could possibly be just one way.

▶ 16:20 What— what about Jesus? What about Jesus? There isn’t only one way— there is— there’s one way and only one way, and that is Jesus. So here’s the big question: are there many paths to get to the one God? Well, I believe, Oprah, that there— I believe that Jesus is the way to the one God, but I believe there are many paths to Jesus. So are gay people also included? Absolutely. [unclear] many ways to Jesus, and gays are in. I think— I don’t think any of us would make it to heaven. I think that it’s going to be open for all of us, or everybody’s going to heaven.

▶ 16:59 And we’re living in a country now where so many people have been raised or were raised under doctrine and dogma, and they feel so beaten down by the guilt and the punishing, wrathful telling people they’re wrong. It’s beating them. They want something more, but they don’t want to be punished. Yeah, I think just what you said, that’s the— that’s the era that we’re living in, that so much of God has been portrayed as, you know, mad and out to get them and just the— the rules and the— and the regulations, the rules and the regulations. I know our message is, yeah, like the— the goodness of God that leads people to repent.

▶ 17:39 I don’t know. I think the— the— the reason some churches don’t grow, some of them have been stagnant, is because, you know, people are already beaten down enough by life. We need people telling us that God is on our side. It’s not the— it’s the people that we’re after. We’re not— we’re not looking at their sins. We’re not trying to judge. Forget sin, just give us the people. Try to encourage them, and their money of course, and let them know that we love them, and that, you know what, you’re only going to— you’re only going to reach people by reaching out to them. And, you know, like if Elton John was sitting here today, and, you know, like if Elton John was sitting here today— if Elton John was there, he would— [unclear]

▶ 18:23 Elton John has told a US magazine that he believes Jesus was gay. The singer described Christ as a compassionate, super-intelligent gay man who understood human problems. So here we got a guy saying Jesus was a homosexual, and the [unclear] are going to accept them and get him into heaven. I say, I love you, John, you are a talented— I love you, John. People that come to our church and sit there, we, I mean, that’s not going to get Elton John saved. It’s an issue that, you know, it’s a hard issue, and I don’t know that I fully understand it. I don’t think I fully understand it. [Recorded clip ends.] Well, as a preacher, don’t you think he needs to understand? Now, I wanted you to hear it from the horse’s mouth, okay.

▶ 19:18 Oprah said love, kindness and generosity will get you into heaven, whatever God you serve. Did you hear that? Wherever, whatever you want to call God. And they said there are many ways to God and many ways to Jesus, and homosexuals are included. Now, folks, you will notice that they’re not talking about adultery, fornication, incest and pedophilia. Oprah lives in daily sexual immorality. She’s unmarried, and she shacks up with some rich businessmen there in LA. But see, we’re so callous now that adultery, sex outside of marriage, even— they don’t even bring up the issue. Don’t even bring it up. These are deflective, defective ministers.

▶ 20:18 Now, here is T. D. Jakes. He’s a Pentecostal preacher, great big church, speaks in tongues and all that stuff, and look what he got to say about Muslims and homosexuals. [Recorded clip begins.] This is Annette. Annette with us from Portland, Oregon. Yes, hi, thanks for taking my call. Sure. I’m a Muslim here in Portland. I’m part of the Shiite community, and we had a wonderful interface dialogue last weekend with the local Unitarian church, and I’d like to ask you, please, to speak about concrete experiences you’ve had as far as interface dialogues, and also I’d like to ask you, do you feel that only Christians can hope to enter heaven?

▶ 20:56 Very great question. When it comes to interfaith experiences, I’m currently serving, by the appointment of President— former President Bush and President Clinton, as co-chair of an interfaith advisory committee to help people get back up on their feet, and we do have on the board Muslims, Catholics, Jewish rabbi, Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostals, across the board, and we’re working together very effectively because we all care about common goals. We have our distinct theology and our own ideology, but there are common grounds that we can work together very effectively in many, many cases. When it comes to heaven, I try to leave that up to God. I certainly believe that Christianity is right, but when it comes down to the final test, who goes and who doesn’t go, Jesus said, “other sheep I have who are not of this fold; them also I must bring.” I’ll let him identify who those sheep are, and I stay out of the conversation.

▶ 21:53 Thanks for that, Bishop. You don’t stay out of that conversation necessarily when homosexuals are the issue. What makes you say that? Well, I’ve read that you consider homosexuality a sin, so if you’re a practicing homosexual, you’re not going to have it, you know. Some— I don’t know anybody of any faith who can say that they have no sin in their lives. I mean, whether it’s homosexuality or lying on your income tax or speaking rudely to somebody at a window, what we call sin may differ from person to person, but who amongst us can say that they have no sin? Jesus said that, and he said, “He that’s without fault among you, let him cast the first stone.” I’m certainly not casting any particular stones at any particular group of people. All of us have sin and come short of the glory of God. But when it— the question was about hell, and when it comes down to hell, that’s an issue that I believe in a way of salvation. I believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, that no man comes to the Father but by him, but I’m not so dogmatic in my views that I’m willing to condemn anybody and send them to hell. I leave that up to— [Recorded clip ends.]

▶ 22:53 Now, that is a Pentecostal preacher talking. Now, here’s the Southern Baptist. [Recorded clip begins.] Are gay people going to hell? No, not because they’re gay. Everybody— we go to hell because we choose to reject the grace of God. The only way you can go to hell is— you, a person accepts, accepts Christ Jesus Christ, he’s going to heaven, okay, without a doubt. Okay. Fair, fair, fair, fair enough. Believe on Jesus, you’re in. No change, no nothing. [Recorded clip ends.] This is this grace and faith doctrine that is so prominent in America, without any change of life. Okay, defective, deflective ministers of the gospel.

▶ 23:45 Now, let’s look at Bible statements of “my faith.” You’ll see how they said “my faith,” “I believe,” and “don’t judge.” And this guy, this Pentecostal, said the other sheep not of this fold can include homosexuals. The Mormons believe they are the other sheep not of that fold. And any idiot that’s read his Bible with any kind of open-mindedness knows that the other sheep are the Gentiles. It’s not sinners, it’s the non-Jews, with the other sheep. The Bible’s very clear on that. And this Pentecostal preacher don’t know that. There’s something wrong with that Pentecost, because the Spirit guides you into all truth. Can I hear an amen?

▶ 24:42 Now, the Bible and the statement of “my faith,” it’s only found twice in the Bible, the statement “my faith.” How many times? Twice. James 2:1 [Editor’s note: the verse he reads is James 2:18.]: “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” So “my faith” is only used in conjunction with my lifestyle. The fruits. You know, “you know them by their fruits,” not their words, their fruits. “You believe that there is one God; you do well.” See, they say, I believe, I believe, I believe. Well, I believe you do well, but the demons believe, and they’re not going to heaven. They tremble. And these guys are wrong when they say, well, I believe— what they believe is insignificant. It’s what God told us to believe that is significant. Amen.

▶ 25:50 Now, second time it’s used: Revelation 2:13. Jesus Christ himself is talking: “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. You hold fast to my name and did not deny my faith.” Whose faith? The faith of Jesus. Now, should my faith be the faith of Jesus? Absolutely. I can’t just come up with my own little ideas and say, well, I believe, and my faith. And to illustrate that, I gave a little chart there on your sheet. 1 Corinthians 2:5 says your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. See, and that’s what Jesus did. He told them that God had to be involved in their salvation. Even to come to Christ, God had to be involved, and they left him. And here Paul said your faith can’t be in the intellect of men. This can’t be intellectually done; it’s got to be in the supernatural power of God involved in your life.

▶ 27:02 Now, we have over here: faith, my faith, my faith, anything I choose, is I’m convinced of, I’m right. All right. Over on the left you got Jesus’s faith. Jesus’s faith is in the scriptures. See, when the rich man came to Jesus and said, “Well, what must I do to have eternal life?” he says, “What does the scripture say?” [Editor’s note: in Luke the question “What is written in the law?” is put to a lawyer (Luke 10:25-26); the rich ruler of Luke 18:18 is answered with the commandments.] See, Jesus’s faith was in the word of God and in the Father. He said, “I do nothing except what the Father tells me to do.” See, Jesus’s faith was in the Father, and it was in the scriptures.

▶ 27:47 Over here, my faith, what I believe, I can come up with any concocted ideal I want to. For instance, like [unclear] Hindus go to heaven. That’s what he said in his interview. He was in India, and, oh, those are nice people, and they’re going to heaven also. There’s Buddhists in India, they’re going to heaven. All right, the Muslims and the Mormons are going to heaven. See, that’s what they said: my faith, I believe they’re going to heaven. Well, that’s wonderful, but what does this side say?

▶ 28:30 Are you getting the picture now? The Catholics, the Protestants and the Jews all come up with the— they all have some weird doctrines, and the problem with these groups is their faith is in their group. Catholics really believe, because they’re Catholics, most of them, they’re going to go to heaven. Their faith is in the Catholic church. But so are Protestants. Baptists, their faith is in the Baptist; Pentecostal, their faith is in the Pentecostal. Your faith has to be in Jesus Christ and his word. Are you hearing me? Your faith cannot be in your faith. Your faith has to be in his faith.